 |
Speak Out North Saint Paul
Welcome to this on-line community. Tell us what is on your mind.
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Bigtime
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 999
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:04 am Post subject: Wind Turbines |
 |
|
On Jan 22nd an article appeared in the “Pioneer Press”* about idle wind turbines. The city of North Saint Paul owns one of the turbines that were discussed. It would seem that these turbines are designed for warmer climates than Minnesota. This week there are follow up articles in the Lillie newspapers. Evidently the oil in the gear boxes is so stiff from the cold that it will not allow the blades to turn.
http://www.review-news.com/main.asp?SectionID=64&SubSectionID=320&ArticleID=5729&TM=1431.104
I could not help but notice in the Pioneer Press Article that there was mention of a local North Saint Paul resident who was quoted as saying: “Who’s the idiot that didn’t realize that a California whirligig is something that doesn’t work in Minnesota?” This person was identified by the article as a 35 year resident of North Saint Paul who is a frequent “gadfly” at city meetings. His name is John Schmahl, and he lives on Chisholm Ave on the North side of Casey Lake. I just couldn’t help but wonder if this “gadfly” isn’t on the “Speak Out North Saint Paul” forum? Anyone want to take any bets?
*St. Paul Pioneer Press (MN) - January 22, 2010 - A1 Main
Newly installed wind turbines idled by Minnesota's winter Cold weather blamed for failure of windmills to work properly
Last year, about a dozen Minnesota communities dreamed of clean, green energy: spinning windmills powering hundreds of homes. Now, months after the deadline, the windmills stand largely immobile, and communities are still waiting for the power to flow. Eleven cities, including North St. Paul and Anoka, are participating in the wind turbine project, each getting a 115-foot windmill via the Minnesota Municipal Power Association, or MMPA. The turbines were to be fully operational by Nov. 7....
Archived
_________________
Fight organized crime............. re-elect no one! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
disgruntled
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1621
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Bigtime, I am glad you made this post. In the past year we have had one minor fiasco, the wind turbine, and averted a major fiasco, PolarNet.
Whether or not the person you singled out in your post is on this board or not matters little.
It could be worse. Burnsville spent $20 million on a "performing arts center" that few people wanted and many residents opposed.
http://www.startribune.com/local/south/81405887.html
| Quote: |
Burnsville performing arts center is in a financial pickle
Last update: January 13, 2010 - 10:11 PM
|
If the wind turbine is the largest mistake this city makes, we should consider ourselves lucky.
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009/04/27/co-op-seeks-permit-for-80-foot-high-wind-turbine-in-heart-of-north-st-paul/
| Quote: |
filed: April 27, 2009
It’s a boondoggle, said resident John *******, who also criticized efforts to build a fiber-optic network in North St. Paul.
|
Maybe John should consider running for office.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bigtime
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 999
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:40 pm Post subject: Is John disgruntled? |
|
|
| disgruntled wrote: |
Whether or not the person you singled out in your post is on this board or not matters little. |
It does matter that I singled out John Schmahl. It doesn't matter if I use his full name here as it was published in the paper. I was wondering if perhaps John was "disgruntled". The descriptive word "gadfly" and his quote raised the possibility. His immediate use of the word "idiot" also fits Disgruntled's MO. We also know that Disgruntled lives in that general area of North Saint Paul from previous post. Now we find out that the "gadfly" was also involved in the "Polarnet fiasco". It's really too bad John can't be more constructive in his published criticism. He might really be able to show the city management the error of their ways and make serious suggestions rather than just piss them off.
| disgruntled wrote: |
| Maybe John should consider running for office. |
John, like Disgruntled, wouldn't have a prayer at getting elected because of his inability to convey his thoughts without always being insulting. He's just another "dumbass".
_________________
Fight organized crime............. re-elect no one! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
disgruntled
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1621
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Is John disgruntled? |
|
|
| Bigtime wrote: |
| disgruntled wrote: |
Whether or not the person you singled out in your post is on this board or not matters little. |
It does matter that I singled out John Schmahl. It doesn't matter if I use his full name here as it was published in the paper.
|
No, using his full name does not matter. However, be careful about making false claims about him. That is libel.
| Bigtime wrote: |
I was wondering if perhaps John was "disgruntled". The descriptive word "gadfly" and his quote raised the possibility. His immediate use of the word "idiot" also fits Disgruntled's MO.
|
 I did not invent the word, "idiot", Bigtime. Using the word "idiot" to describe idiocy is an apt use of the word. Einstein. 
Some people thought I was that other guy who posted here back in late 2008. I wasn't him, either.
| Bigtime wrote: |
We also know that Disgruntled lives in that general area of North Saint Paul from previous post.
|
As do 11,000 other people. The random odds of me being John are 1 in 11000.
| Bigtime wrote: |
Now we find out that the "gadfly" was also involved in the "Polarnet fiasco".
|
How do you define "involved"? I saw no reference to him being involved in PolarNet.
| Bigtime wrote: |
It's really too bad John can't be more constructive in his published criticism.
|
How can you be constructive about criticizing things that are stupid beyond reason?
| Bigtime wrote: |
He might really be able to show the city management the error of their ways and make serious suggestions rather than just piss them off.
|
Bigtime, it is not possible to get through to people like you. For example, I've been trying to show you (and Agitator, Jane, and Contrary) the error of your ways for years. It hasn't worked. A full year into Obama's destructive Presidency, most people who voted for him continue to support him.
| Bigtime wrote: |
| disgruntled wrote: |
| Maybe John should consider running for office. |
John, like Disgruntled, wouldn't have a prayer at getting elected because of his inability to convey his thoughts without always being insulting. He's just another "dumbass". |
I would vote for him. Perhaps. Being right on two issues (PolarNet and the wind turbine) does not make one fit for office. However, being wrong constantly does make one unfit.
The objective of the local politicians should be to provide a safe place where people can raise their children and live their lives in harmony.
The sticker is that some politicians get heads that are too big for their shoulders. They think that it is their role to make all sorts of changes, good or not. They view themselves as empire builders. They can't be happy maintaining peace and order. They have to leave their mark to satisfy their massive egos.
While PolarNet was not as bad of an idea as Burnsville's $20 million performing arts center fiasco (I do not think PolarNet was a terrible idea at all), it was beyond the scope and financial resources of a small city. The wind turbine is more symbolic than anything, and I have never been a supporter of hollow symbolism. Spending $400k of taxpayer money on a symbolic eyesore is not an efficient use of money.
I support alternative energy. My main issue with wind turbines is noise and aesthetics.
http://www.startribune.com/local/81195972.html?elr=KArksUUUycaEacyU
| Quote: |
Wind power takes a blow around Minnesota
Patti Lienau said there is no way to escape the hum or flickering shadows from the turbines built by her father’s farm near Elkton, Minn.
Some rural Minnesotans are howling over the noise and shadows from wind farms.
By TOM MEERSMAN, Star Tribune
Last update: January 12, 2010 - 12:04 AM
ELKTON, MINN. -- Every sunny morning, shadows from the massive rotating blades swing across their breakfast table. The giant towers dominate the view from their deck. Noise from the turbines fills the silence that Dolores and Rudy Jech once enjoyed on their Minnesota farm.
"Rudy and I are retired, and we like to sit out on our deck," Dolores said. "And that darned thing is right across the road from us. It's an eyesore, it's noisy, and having so many of them there's a constant hum."
|
We should put wind turbines only in liberal and Democrat areas. Put a wind farm right in the middle of Uptown and we'll see how supportive liberals are of wind power. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
karameister
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 18
Location: North St. Paul
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Disgruntled, I'm curious how you came up with the $400 figure. It was my understanding that MMPA paid for the turbine, not the city. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
disgruntled
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1621
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| karameister wrote: |
| Disgruntled, I'm curious how you came up with the $400 figure. It was my understanding that MMPA paid for the turbine, not the city. |
The $400,000 figure was mentioned in an article somewhere as the average cost per turbine including the cost of installation.
The MMPA is an organization of which the city is part.
http://www.mmpa.org/
If the organization paid for it, they got that money, unless there was a grant of some sort, from the member cities. Or, they issued bonds for which the member cities are liable through higher taxation or increased electric rates.
Here is the answer.
http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_13449940?nclick_check=1
| Quote: |
To fund the project, MMPA sold $3.6 million in low-interest bonds, which the participating cities must repay.
Wally Wysopal, North St. Paul city manager, said residents won't notice their monthly bills increase because the money will come directly from city funds.
|
The taxpayers of NSP are paying for the wind turbine that cannot operate half the year. 
Laughing through the pain. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
contrary1
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 472
Location: N. St. Paul
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The taxpayers of NSP are paying for the wind turbine that cannot operate half the year. |
The "city funds" mentioned by Wysopal are from the electric enterprise fund...not property taxes. The more accurate statement, used by Schmal, is ratepayers are paying. And, of course, we all know wind turbines operate in harsher conditions than we have here. The fact it isn't operating now doesn't mean it cannot operate in winter. The question to be answered is what the temperature design limits originally were and what they will be after modifications to lubricants/parts.
No matter....this wasn't meant to produce a significant amount of energy. If it were, it wouldn't be located where it is. It's meant to be a symbol of commitment to increasing use of renewable energy and an educational opportunity. I'd say there's already been some education happening. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
disgruntled
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1621
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| contrary1 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The taxpayers of NSP are paying for the wind turbine that cannot operate half the year. |
The "city funds" mentioned by Wysopal are from the electric enterprise fund...not property taxes.
|
Whose money comprise those funds? The electric customers?
| contrary1 wrote: |
The more accurate statement, used by Schmal, is ratepayers are paying. And, of course, we all know wind turbines operate in harsher conditions than we have here. The fact it isn't operating now doesn't mean it cannot operate in winter.
|
The fact it isn't operating now means it isn't designed to operate in winter.
I laughed when I read about the solution to install a heater unit to warm up the hydraulic fluid. What if the heater used more electricity than the turbine produced on a day with little wind?
Research into the contract to purchase the wind turbines should be done to determine if there was any misrepresentation. A seller selling something should inform the buyer that it won't work in the winter.
| contrary1 wrote: |
The question to be answered is what the temperature design limits originally were and what they will be after modifications to lubricants/parts.
|
Here is the question to be answered: how much is that going to cost and who is paying for it?
| contrary1 wrote: |
No matter....this wasn't meant to produce a significant amount of energy.
|
We all know that.
| contrary1 wrote: |
If it were, it wouldn't be located where it is. It's meant to be a symbol of commitment to increasing use of renewable energy and an educational opportunity. I'd say there's already been some education happening. |
$400k is a lot of money to spend on a symbol. Couldn't they have just bought a poster with a wind turbine on it and saved $399,998?
I don't know how much educational value there is in a windmill. Unless the lesson is to do your research before spending a ton of money on something that doesn't work right. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
contrary1
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 472
Location: N. St. Paul
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Whose money comprise those funds? The electric customers? |
Yes...anyone who gets a N. St. Paul electric bill.
| Quote: |
The fact it isn't operating now means it isn't designed to operate in winter.
I laughed when I read about the solution to install a heater unit to warm up the hydraulic fluid. What if the heater used more electricity than the turbine produced on a day with little wind? |
The fact is non-operation under certain conditions is part of operational design. I don't know that anyone has explained why it stopped in the first place. Could've been the rain/ice/snow mix we got that then froze. Heaters are quite common in extremely cold climates to keep the fluids and parts heated during non-operation. Non-operation could be due to lack of wind, ice buildup, temperatures below the operational limit or mechanical issues.
| Quote: |
| Research into the contract to purchase the wind turbines should be done to determine if there was any misrepresentation. A seller selling something should inform the buyer that it won't work in the winter. |
I agree...last I heard it was designed to work in temperatures -15 or higher. If it didn't come with a heater, I'm not sure how it was supposedly designed to ensure restart given our temperatures don't just shoot back up above freezing after an hour or so of extreme cold coupled with snow, sleet and ice. I don't assume misrepresentation because I don't know what questions were asked of the seller or what design requirements were given. Nor do I know if the installation was done as recommended by the seller. Those are issues I'd like to see openly addressed because it would help educate people who don't really understand wind turbines. Too bad I don't think we'll hear that discussion.
| Quote: |
| I don't know how much educational value there is in a windmill. Unless the lesson is to do your research before spending a ton of money on something that doesn't work right. |
Well, you know that's a good lesson right there for those who think you can put up a wind turbine anywhere and become energy self-sufficient. You do know the MMPA wanted the turbines located close to schools, right? Again, I disagree with the conclusion it isn't working right - it's working right if it wasn't designed to handle the type of winter events we've had. I think people who support wind energy have learned from this already if they've been paying attention. They're the ones who need to learn more about how and when wind turbines work and why proper siting is critical. The MMPA has 12 of these around the state. Some will produce more energy, some less (like the one here). There are learnings to be had from that for residents, the school district, businesses, government etc. That means some will learn from this experience that wind turbines have limitations they never fully comprehended.
And, when all is said and done, the MMPA 12 turbine project will add renewable energy to it's portfolio and help it to meet the state mandates. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
disgruntled
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1621
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
johnspeaks
Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 29
Location: n.s.p
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:28 am Post subject: turbines |
|
|
| I honestly think having these turbines is beneficial and long overdue in NSP. We should get 10 more of them and line them up along 36. Maybe have a few on the high school roof to help power the classrooms? Maybe a few to power streetlights? Although, I do agree we should think about putting a lubricant in them so they don't freeze up during the winter. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric N.
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 207
Location: 55109
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| So when do I start seeing my electric bill go down? Wait!! When do I see a new wind turbine fee? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Polaralum
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 1838
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
Oooo! John, how about this:
Last edited by Polaralum on Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
